In accordance with strict o4b policy to post all losses, here is this game against LowGear. My wife showed up unexpectedly and I had to quickly bail in this game. My apologies to LowGear. GG

It's an interesting game for two reasons:
1. I rushed with Incan, sacked his capitol, and then boomed.
2. I forgot I was playing Incan and didn't start mining metal until WAAAAY late. That won't happen again! (I hope.)

At the end, I had almost 2x the economy and was almost 2 ages up. But a loss is a loss.
posted by Tim at 9:27 PM

Saw a link to the Alliance Francophone at RON Universe. This is a French RON strategy site. So it's in French. Duh (although they kindly place a BabelFish link for automatic translation for the non-Franophones). Some of their articles are translations of English strategies; other articles are original, including the "We Surrender" strategy.

Just kidding, of course :-)
posted by Tim at 9:04 PM

The bar has just been lowered another notch ... errrrr ... raised another ... oh never mind.
We have a new faster time! 12:17. Still using SCI2 -> CLASSICAL. Took RollYerOwn's advice and ditched the mines altogether. Stumbled through with +24 metal. Getting early Gunpowder (sub 11 minutes) really helped.
posted by Tim at 7:44 PM

Over at Heavens Forum, blue_thunder started a thread asserting that perhaps Colossus is the best wonder. So what is the best wonder? Originally, I had said:

I like Pyramids. You get the food bonus and the +1 town bonus. Those are good early on. The Colossus is better but it's not as good as the SOL, IMO. You talk about wonders being a waste of resources - try upgrading a huge army!

But after running the Challenge Game, we've seen that wealth is incredibly important to driving knowledge, and knowledge is the single biggest factor limiting age advancement. Colossus gives you a +30% bonus to wealth, which means if you have +100 wealth already, it's payback on wealth alone will be in a little over 3 minutes. Total payback would be just under 7 minutes. So, I'm probably going to have to give the nod to the Colossus in the early stages. Later on though, I'm definitely going for the SOL.

UPDATE: There's an interesting Apolyton thread on Wonders. And I'm sure there are other "best wonder" threads out there as well.
posted by Tim at 10:10 AM

It occurs to me that enlightenment age may be too early to use as a test. What we're really trying to compare is an early II versus COM2. But if we would never get to +150 anyway, then COM2 is useless in this test. But that defies reason since, you'd need those resources to make military. Of course, there IS some efficacy to this. The resources devoted to getting to those later ages could be used to make military and thus conduct early attacks with superior troops. This could be a proxy for it. However, it's clear that to achieve this goal you're forced to do things differently than you would if you knew the game were going to last a long time. Taking the learnings from this Challenge Game might help shape the next one.

Perhaps a refined test goal would be to include a certain level of military at a certain point in time. If we defined the goal as a healthy military force upgraded and ready to attack at a certain age, then that would have real-game implications.

We'll finish up Challenge Game 1 and see if anybody can break the current record of 12:23 held by Buckets (has to be a film!)

Meanwhile, I'm looking for suggestions for Challenge Game 2. Perhaps fastest to Medieval or Gunpowder army consisting of 1 General, 1 Supply cart, 2 siege, 5 fully upgraded knights, 5 fully upgraded archers and 5 fully light infantry, 1 explorer (and maybe a spy or two, if available). Thoughts? What would be useful?

The clear thing to realize is that researches and expansion which improve the economy (normally no-brainers) might actually SLOW your ability to get an army assembled. And thus in competition, you might have a bigger econ (temporarily) but you'll find yourself losing cities to an early attack.
posted by Tim at 9:55 AM

While doing some of the analysis for the resource equalization post, I noticed a common trend in most of the games I saw. In analyzing typical booming and anti-rush build order patterns, I found that most players research CIV1 pretty early and usually build their second expansion town around the 2:00 mark. I also found that a 3-4 hoplite rush could enter enemy territory as early as 2:00. Even the most wary boomer will usually drop a second town before researching MIL1, so it appeared that there was a window of opportunity to easily capture the enemy's first expansion town. On that topic, here's what we said two weeks ago:

Another interesting note is the possibility of a quick attack on the second town at the 2:00 mark. This is less devastating than going after the capital, but it also has a higher chance of victory. There's no chance of a temple. There's fewer villagers who can garrison or repair the city. And you will be attacking almost a full minute before the capital attack. While it seems absurd to pass up the sack bonus, the possibility of taking and holding this town is pretty high. The opponent will probably still be stuck at +60/60 econ and you can send villagers to repair the town and use it as a forward base. Not to mention that you've created a 240 resource differential. You've gotten a town for free while he's still got to build another and go MIL1 and build a barracks right away.

This may be true, but given that the capitol offers a juicy +500-to-all sack bonus, the expansion city seems less attractive as a target. In support of this, at Heavens Forum, Apollyon asserted that "If you can sack the second [city,] you sure as hell can sack the capitol." At first glance, I'd agree with this statement. But after further reflection, there are definitely scenarios where you might be able to sack the expansion while an attack on the capitol might fail. As everyone knows, if you rush and don't capture anything, you're pretty much screwed. So if you've committed to the rush, but your attack on the capitol looks too risky, you might go for the expansion. Examples of when this might be a good idea:

• The enemy has scouted you already (i.e. seen your troops and barracks) and is planning defenses at his capitol


• The capitol is further back, forcing you to travel through enemy territory. You're likely to be seen, losing the element of surprise


• The enemy has built a temple at his capitol adding +25% hit points


• The number of villagers near the capitol makes getting slingers in unmolested too risky

So why would this likely be more successful? By attacking the expansion:

• You are hitting up to a full minute before a normal ancient rush would occur. 4 HI can be attacking the town usually not later than 2:15-2:30. 4 HI will take down a small city in under 1 minute


• The enemy will likely have at most 1-2 villagers nearby to either garrison or attack slingers


• The enemy may not even have sufficient food this early to immediately upgrade to MIL1, buying you extra attacking time


• Defensive buildings (like temples) won't be built yet on the expansion city


• The enemy's barracks will likely be built by the capitol and far enough away from his expansion that he cannot easily get troops into the defense

"Okay, so I can get the town, but I don't get the sack bonus!" Yes, this is true. But all is not lost. Your opponent has just spent 108 food and 120 food and timber building that town. You got it for free. This partly makes up for the huge expense of MIL1, barracks, troops, and foregoing +50 ruins. But no, it's certainly not as good as the sack bonus. The other major difference from the capitol sack rush is here we plan to HOLD the city. You've already got a big lead on local military, all you need to do is maintain that lead and make the appropriate counters. You've now got a bigger production economy than the enemy, so that shouldn't be too hard, although you may have fewer stockpiled resources. Meanwhile, you're going to start using his city as an econ point. And knowing the enemy, you probably just captured his juiciest wood location. Send new villagers from your capitol to use any farms or lumber camps left behind. Don't forget to use a villager to begin repairing the city. Played properly, you WILL assimilate it, and you want to make it as difficult as possible to retake. Unlike a capitol sack, the expansion is closer to our home, so we can continue to reinforce with troops and villagers.

The key to all of this is keeping strict tabs on the enemy. In order to pull this off, you need to know what he's up to.
The enemy has three main strategic choices:

• Build lots of troops from his barracks and attempt to retake the city


• Ignore your attack and build another expansion somewhere else and continue booming


• Some combination: train defensive troops and build a second city when he can somewhere else

If the enemy tries lays down a barracks and trains up troops to retake the city, he's likely going to lose. You're already ahead on troops and time is ticking away on the assimilation meter. By the time he gets a barracks up, you should have 4-7 troops: 4 HI and 3 LI. Archers will be his first choice, but those require significant amounts of wealth. You should have enough slingers to deal with those. If you see him making other troop types, ensure you have the right counters. A good player will keep his troops garrisoned until he has enough to attack. You may not know how many or what type of troops he's got until he attacks. This may result in you over-producing or under-producing troops. This is why you have to see if he's building a second city and doing #2 or #3.

Another alternative for the enemy is to ignore your attack altogether and make a new city. This is probably not wise. A second expansion city will fall just as quickly as the first one, particularly if he makes it too far away from any defenses he might have. Also, because you have a large force RIGHT ON HIS DOORSTEP, he has to be wary of you continuing to build up and going after his capitol. At a minimum you should expect a competent player to research MIL1, build a barracks, and train at least a few troops. If he's read the forums, he'll probably build the barracks on the other side of his capitol. This is good for you. It enables you to conduct harassing attack on his capitol or farms with your troops while forcing him to ungarrison his troops to shoo you away. If you sense weakness and think you've got enough troops, a final push on the capitol could win the game, but this is risky.

Probably the best course of action for him is to make a significant quantity of defensive troops (archers & slingers) such that he can fend off any further pushes and build a replacement city. This new city would ideally be placed so that he's got access to wood - his second-best spot - and so it's within range of his barracks, so he can defend both expansion and capitol. His best approach is to milk the remaining econ advantage he has and advance faster to a later age where he can dislodge your troops. This middle ground approach is probably the best for him and the most dangerous for you. If you attack one of his cities and he counters you, then you're likely going to lose the captured town. On the other hand, if you do nothing, he may recover economically.

So it all comes down to maintaining the initiative. The best advantages you have are the already sizable army you've got and its placement right in the heart of his territory. Try to keep tabs on him and keeping your troop strength above his. Probe aggressively for any weaknesses and try to discern his troops strength. And good luck!

UPDATE: I think I'm gonna start calling this the EXPANSION RUSH.
posted by Tim at 6:53 AM

WOW.

If repeat business is the sincerest form of flattery, the sports cable giant ESPN has very good things to say about chess. In January they showed hours of live coverage of the final game between Kasparov and Junior. The ratings and reaction were so good that ESPN will cover all four of the X3D Kasparov-Fritz games in November. This time they will show a remarkable 17.5 hours of chess during the week of the match!

via Pejmanesque.
posted by Tim at 6:40 PM

RollYerOwn reports he's done a 12:23 time with what I think was a SC1 -> COM1 -> CIV1 -> SCI2 -> CLASSICAL. It's hard to tell because he didn't outline his build and he didn't post a game. Post your games people! The value is not in stating your time; it's in comparing the different approaches.
posted by Tim at 2:02 PM

Illustrative example why you shouldn't talk smack. Mr. "We all FRiggin know how to do the rush and how to the counter it [sic]" Raven gets it handed to him by ... *GASP* ... an ancient rush. It's not like this was a big surprise given the big argument over at Heavens Forum. I didn't even bother going after his capitol (which was undefended BTW). Instead, I used the technique I alluded to in this early post on resource equalization during rushes, whereby you constrain the enemy by hitting their expansions. To top it all off, he displays his true colors by "ungracefully" dropping from the game as I begin killing off his classical army. Game is here or at Carch's site. Should be available soon. Thanks Carch!

UPDATE: So Raven tracks me down in a game room and says to me, "So you're making a fool out of me now?" I reply, "No, you're making a fool out of yourself." Then he starts spamming "hahahaha," so I kicked him.

UPDATE II: Game is available at Carch's site now.

UPDATE III: Raven responds on Heavens Forum:

I knew 04b was gonna brag (what a bitttch), I knew this guy thought he was ubber leet when he started talking about beating seven toughest ai (sigh) kids today...

Whatever happened to gaming etiquette? Like saying "gg" before resigning. Or "You beat me fair and square, but I'll get you next time!" And is it now the standard to end a game you're losing by disconnecting? As for bragging, the game was going to get posted win or lose. If I lost, it was going in the "How to defend against the rush column," and if I won, it was going in the "Resource equalization during early rushes column."

UPDATE IV: Raven makes nice:

O4b I dont wanna get into a argument or a big deal (seeing as you already have) I lost, I acted stupid, I didnt do the right thing, you obviously have this thing down to a science, I hope you had fun, Gg if I forgot, I didnt disconnect on purpose Btw, I got a pop up that lagged me out (but your probably thinking I'm making excuses) end of story, take your article off the site and end this...geeeez

Well, "GG" to you as well, Raven. I hope we get to play more games as exciting as this in the future!
posted by Tim at 12:15 PM

Stripping out even more fat. Enlightenment Age clicked at 12:42 12:40 12:26. This time, I focused on getting the 3rd and 4th towns up more quickly so I could increase trade and get the universities up more quickly. I've gone from maxing out metal at +200 to doing only about +40. Metal is useful to sell early on, but then it's not worth it. Since I'm no longer getting the upgrades that require it, it's not that useful. I should be able to cut out even more stuff, since I am still waiting on knowledge, although it's getting closer.

UPDATE: Games are up now.
posted by Tim at 11:50 PM

Another lower time for the RON Challenge game has been posted. Enlightenment Age clicked at 13:19. The game is posted at Carch's Site o' Fun, although you might need to wait until he approves it. I used the SCI2 -> CLASSICAL build. This time, I researched the remaining science techs before getting the rest of the other stuff. Also, an early MEDIEVAL + SCI4 is helpful because the university techs really help out. I also did not build a smelter. Selling metal is not useful that late and the resources are better used elsewhere. While the end time of this game makes this artificial - I would normally build a smelter - that's not pertinent for this exercise. Here I'm trying to find the best early build order (i.e. level 2 techs) for long-term play. Smelters come at SCI3.

For those who want to try it, download the save game here. You have to put it in your save game folder, play it, then post your game and time and what build you used. RON Challenge Game

posted by Tim at 10:51 PM

I've been looking for the optimal time to place granaries. So, I decided to do a little analysis to determine when I should place them and when I should upgrade. In order to do this, I had to make some assumptions about villager cost, since you'll have some villagers go to timber and some to food. I used a typical approach: villagers alternate going to food and wood. I then added the cost of the villager and the farm together, subtracting the farm completion bonus. All costs were considered equal and added together (which may not be true depending on your playstyle). To compare cost effectiveness, I examined the ratio of incremental income and total cost.

• The first granary (70 resources) is cheaper than your 7th farm (~76 resources)


• The second granary is cheaper than the 13th farm


• It is cheaper (by about 30 resources) to get to +150 using 10 farms and 2 granaries (plus the three towns) than it is to build out 12 farms (plus the three towns)


• At 10 farms, it's better to upgrade (+30 food) than it is to build 3 more farms


• On the third city, you shouldn't put down a granary until you've built out all 5 farms, or you've got 3 farms and have researched Agriculture (+50% to production)

Implications:

• It makes sense to get SCI2 and CLASSICAL as early as possible so you can put down a granary to boost production. Going to COM2 before CLASSICAL means you either don't fully benefit from the extra commerce or you'll have to spend extra to get to +150 prior to granaries being available. This defies the current conventional wisdom, but is in line with the results I am some others have been getting. You can go early CLASSICAL and then begin the two granaries while you are upgrading COM2. The third town will max you out at +150.


• Assuming a sizable economy, priority should go to getting production upgrades as soon as possible. Boosting the production with upgrades is much more efficient than building extra farms, particularly in later ages. Only when the production bonuses are not enough to get you to the cap, then build extra farms and granaries to match them. Fully upgraded, it's better to build one farm, then a granary, before building any more farms on that town.

posted by Tim at 9:44 AM

Check out the Penny Arcade. Even the ads are funny.
posted by Tim at 7:59 PM

My first go at the RON Challenge game has been posted. I clicked Enlightenment Age at 14:09 13:28. The game is posted at Carch's Site o' Fun, although you might need to wait until he approves it. I used the SCI2 -> CLASSICAL build. There's certainly room for improvement as I did nothing to optimize my build purely for achieving early Enlightenment (e.g., I over-researched SCI and that cost a lot of knowledge, losing at least a couple of minutes) and I made early granaries and lumber mills (not sure when is the optimal time to make these).

For those who want to try it, download the save game here. You have to play it, then post your game and time and what build you used. RON Challenge Game

UPDATE: Posted a 13:28 version. The obvious thing is to get the universities up and full of scholars as quickly as possible. Also, the univeristy upgrades at medieval (200 timber) and gunpowder (400 timber) are very important. Getting additional commerce and production bonus upgrades aren't worth it because the payback period goes beyond the game length (in this case). The not-so-obvious thing is that the extra knowledge of cost of COM2 is offset by the knowledge gathered during the earlier classical. As Apollyon so eloquently put it, in a real game it will come down to the rares you get.

posted by Tim at 4:43 PM

OMG. What a pain in the ass. I upgraded to Windows XP and RON would no longer connect to gamespy through the in game connect feature. Everytime I tried to join gamespy the computer would completely hang. I've still got a dual boot config with Windows ME and it worked fine with that. But I also upgraded my video card and it wouldn't run under ME, so I had to keep the XP config. On a whim, I tried playing through the gamespy web interface. Worked fine. LOL. What a POS. I hope they get this stuff fixed in one of these patches. *SIGH*
posted by Tim at 11:32 PM

Okay. To appease the gods, I'm linking to the "Greatest RON clan Ever." They are the Tactical Warfare Collective or TWC for short.
posted by Tim at 12:54 PM