Note: I've edited this post to leave out the details of an ugly incident which hopefully will be put behind us. .

Some rude behavior.

I think a general rule of thumb should be to not smack talk when you're playing a 3 against 2 AND you got forward city taken from you AND your ally has to come defend your ass. Strat_gladiator decided to break this general rule of thumb. But that's his choice. Although, I'm not sure what drives people to be so rude to complete strangers.

UPDATE: Strat_gladiator posted an apology and a well-reasoned explanation (frustration and psychological warfare). Taken in that context his comments are less inflammatory, so perhaps I went a little overboard in my response.

One of his comments then might be close to the truth:

Was the reason ... the fact that even though you put forth your best effort, you, sir, are frustrated at the situation getting turned around?

He ends with:

I hope we meet again on more friendly terms and I again apologize for the use of that tactic to achieve the ultimate goal, winning.

To that, I accept your apology and consider bygones to be bygones; if you ever wanna play in the future, I'll be more than happy to.

Which brings us to this question. Normally, "all is fair in love and war" and "war is hell" so his "phsycological warfare" tactic would generally be in order, but as he rightly mentioned -- this is just a game. So is rude behavior ever justified in a game? And yes - you can discuss this here in the comments section.

UPDATE 2: Since gladiator has responded maturely, I've honored his request to reword the content of this post. But let us all remember and try to act civilly toward our fellow gamers.
posted by Tim at 10:06 PM

MeMeNTo crushes HalfLotus (nevermore) in a stunning example of how the Bantu city spam can cause seriosuly problems. MeMeNTo gets his fourth city up beofre HL even gets his third. To make matters worse for HL, because it's Great Lakes, he gets totally boxed in, and his third city has to go up in back! HL tries to put up some fight, but it's over by then, as he can't get any metal going. MeMeNTo does a good job of making use of his civs bonuses to win the game. Game is here.
posted by Tim at 8:02 PM

posted by Tim at 7:28 PM

Polly reminds us of the evolution of the 150 in a marvelous display of linking over at the Rise of Nations Heaven Forum.

As you can see these posts are general posts from back in july, but i dont really see anything evolving after that. Its the thing I still do and many others seem to do. Of course, if you think something should be added or don't understanding something feel free to post.

posted by Tim at 6:52 PM

niDe mentions something everyone already knows, but it's an importnat reminder all the same:

As long as you've got the attrition research at the smelter that stops you from getting attrition when stationary, your merchant will be fine once he gets there.

See, I consciously knew that the smelter line reduced attrition and prevented attrition when stationary. But I never really considered applying that benefit to merchants in enemy territory (or on the edge of your territory). D'oh! It's good to keep hearing this stuff; you can learn new stuff everyday. (Unless you're Myst.)
posted by Tim at 6:49 PM

Biggest news is that I_am_Andy has finally started playing again, so he'll remain atop the O4B rankings for quite awhile, even if he goes on a big losing streak. Another interesting tidbit -- of the top 100 players only 31 are considered "established" and "active."

O4BRank	Rank	Player                   	Rating	W	L	#	Date

1	1	I_aM_AnDy                	2690	76	20	96	11/21

2	4	PCA_Frogman              	2302	35	0	35	11/21

3	11	AS_REVENGER              	2182	13	2	15	11/21

4	13	PCA_newty                	2156	50	17	67	11/21

5	14	ESPerItou                	2155	10	0	10	11/18

6	17	TWC_ShaDowZ              	2148	35	8	43	11/20

7	18	Udon_Bomber              	2148	31	5	36	11/10

8	20	TuF_Astator              	2129	47	12	59	11/18

9	23	Ma_ARes_rS               	2122	24	2	26	11/14

10	28	PCA_mayupu               	2115	9	1	10	11/19

11	29	DaRq_Vorfidus            	2111	18	7	25	11/18

12	36	_RedruM_                 	2096	21	4	25	11/13

13	37	DaRq_xYz                 	2095	11	2	13	11/21

14	38	Gigi                     	2093	18	3	21	11/21

15	40	G_DoG_                   	2087	23	5	28	11/15

16	42	camel                    	2086	9	4	13	11/16

17	48	AU_MoNTaNa               	2079	13	2	15	11/21

18	49	miss Tiffany             	2079	13	4	17	11/20

19	50	PCA_Mell                 	2077	22	3	25	11/21

20	54	PCA_yuu_rerise           	2075	22	3	25	11/20

21	57	AU_MeMeNTo               	2070	18	5	23	11/21

22	69	Silvery_Dragon[ms]       	2048	9	4	13	11/13

23	75	I_HoSt_1oN1              	2040	77	20	97	10/26

24	76	SolituS                  	2037	13	1	14	11/17

25	77	TWC_LoKatZiS             	2036	15	10	25	11/21

26	82	PCA_MATUURA_AYA          	2026	34	10	44	11/15

27	86	UWF--FoLeY--UWF          	2021	13	2	15	11/21

28	87	zunko                    	2021	20	5	25	11/17

29	95	Nanjin                   	2010	61	24	85	11/16

30	96	Be_Good                  	2009	11	4	15	10/29

31	97	Renegade                 	2008	88	33	121	10/27

FWIW: Out4Blood is at a paltry 1990.
posted by Tim at 12:32 PM

HalfLotus has been a busy little bee, playing and posting several games against some decent opponents over at RON Universe recorded games. Get 'em while they're hot! (And yes, Cowboy, I linked to the page, not the files! :-) HL has chastised me for posted links to games without actually viewing them, but since he posted these, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by Tim at 9:40 AM

This is the game we mentioned earlier: SPOTLIGHT GAME: Frogman vs. newty. This was a very close game that was decided by a combination of seemingly harmless events, but when taken together spelled doom. Both players are Spanish on Old World. They both play similarly except newty goes for CIV2 while Frogman goes for COM2. This allowed Frogman to catch back up and pass newty with econ, while newty has trouble taking advantage of his early CIV2 because he can't get shis 3rd city up.

Frogman gets the upper hand during the early raiding action, killing two of newty's merchants. newty tries to get his 3rd city up in a decisive loaction, but Frogman kills the early builders. newty starts building his city and almost finishes it, which would have seriously cramped Frogman, but Frog manages to start his city just as newty completes his. Whew! That was close. Meanwhile, Frogman is still ahead in econ. He flanks newty's borders with a castle, and then builds a forth town deep in newty's territory. This enables him to place a tower right near newty's second city lumberjacks. However, he has trouble getting the tower up because the borders keep going back and forth. He goes after newty's gems rare and then pushes the border enough to get the tower close in. (Unfortunately, he never research religion, which would have been quite a bit faster in getting his borders moved closer to newty.)

That well-placed tower signaled the ned of the game as newty's wood econ dropped below +100 and he never really recovered. Frogman used that gap to start attacking Frogman's second city. So newty, instead of defending, decides to go after Frogman's second city. A min-race ensues to see who can bring the other's city down faster. But wait! Frogman stops his attack on newty's city and instead goes after his capital. There's no towers and no temple and the Madrid falls pretty quickly. When newty goes after Frogman's capital, he loses his troops and Frogman retakes his 2nd city. Game is over.

Lessons learned:

• Scout out your opponent well to learn where his rare resources and economy points are. Both players did a good job scouting each other out, but Frogman did a better job, which helped him in the end, particularly during the raiding. Too many players, including me, try raiding with no scouting. It doesn't work very well.
• RAID RAID RAID. In most of the games I have seen, the game is decided by the best raiding. Not every game, but most games.
• Don't under estimate the ol' border flank. It can be decisive.
• Capitals are often less defended than the border towns. Don't be afraid to go after it.

posted by Tim at 6:52 PM

posted by Tim at 2:02 PM

It was the expansion pack! Here's a news release.

Microsoft and Big Huge Games have announced that they are hard at work developing Throne and Patriots, the upcoming expansion pack to Rise of Nations, the strategy game released earlier this year. The expansion pack will include six more new playable nations to the original game's total of 18, along with more than 20 new units, and new features, like the expansion's new campaigns and its government system. The government system will let each nation in the game determine for itself how it will be governed--a decision that will affect its development over the course of history. The new campaigns will include scenarios based on real-world historical engagements.

Thanks to Sir_Vikin.
posted by Tim at 1:58 PM

War pointed out this pic on the front of the BHG website.



Maybe they're announcing an expansion pack?!
posted by Tim at 7:20 PM

Email from Graham regarding our thoughts on the presentation of ratings:

Thanks very much for you input. It's much appreciated. Some of the information we'd like to include on the page just isn't collected by GameSpy, but we'll do our best to make improvements to the ratings site going forward.

Thanks! We look forward to seeing the results.
posted by Tim at 5:32 PM

posted by Tim at 8:50 AM

The top two RON players duke it out. I don't have much info on this game and I haven't watched it yet, but it's just gotta be good. Download it here (PCA rec games). When I get a chance to watch it, I'll do a commentary.

UPDATE: It's also at MFO in the rec games library.
posted by Tim at 8:43 AM

I found the semi-final game between EL_Capitan and PCA_newty on the PCA website. Download it here.
posted by Tim at 8:39 AM

This won't be very useful unless you happen to read Japanese, but the Japanese powerhouse PCA clan has a pretty good website. How do I know it's good? Why they linked to me, of course! It shows they have excellent taste. Just kidding. It's actually a blog similar to mine, but maintained by PCA_Frogman, which many of you will recognize as being the #1 RON player -- according to O4BRank that is. Anyway, if you couldn't glean it from the title, PCA stands for Promotion Committee of Armageddon. There's some pretty good strategy stuff there if you can dig it out from the bad translation. Key takeaway is their general preference for cavalry and archers.

(Looks better in unicode)

UPDATE: What? You don't read Japanese?! Try this translated link.

UPDATE 2: If you're trying to view PCA recorded games, translated links apparently won't allow downloads to work. You'll have to manually parse the links to get them to work. You can view the code for links I've already created to get the right syntax.
posted by Tim at 8:18 AM

I get a lot of requests to play in the lobby nowadays. Some of them just want to call their mom and say, "Mama, I whooped up on O4B! WOOT!" Others want to prove me wrong about some strategy. And still others just wanna kick my ass. FYI, just because I am online does not mean I am always available to play. As some of you know, Wifey makes my playing ability severely limited most evenings. On some occasions I can get games going, but have to play with no sound. Rarely (like last night) I get to play freely with the sound on. When I need to play, but really can't play, I'll join some newb 4on4 East vs. West game, because if I have to alt-tab from that for 10 minutes, it doesn't hurt me in the game.

Anyway, to montana: You'll get your game, don't worry. And I'm sure you'll kick me arse just like you did last time.
posted by Tim at 7:45 AM

MFO is hosting a Big Huge SMACKDOWN!

Patch 3 for Rise of Nations has just come out and in order to celebrate BHG's critically acclaimed game, the company has decided to sponsor a major multiplayer tournament. There is no entry fee so join in for some fun multiplayer action thanks to BHG!

We want lots of players, so everyone go sign up!
posted by Tim at 4:33 PM

Not much to see here - move along people, move along. AU_niDe vs Out4Blood. Basically, he hit me with raiders and I lost my econ. Lots of informers let him know I was down, and so he made it end quickly.
posted by Tim at 4:29 PM

El_Capitan proposes a new style of playing Japanese derived from his victory in the recent 1on1 tourney.

with the japanese, i think they're able to rush all the time and still boom effectively from it as long as they're making the enemy waste resources on early defenses. just like the mongols early ha raiding, the purpose is to slow down the other nation while booming and raiding.

posted by Tim at 11:12 AM

Kasparov vs. X3D Fritz. Machines apparently are not good at the positional stuff, i.e., strategy! They key insights come from the analysis of move 18.

This useless-looking move confused most of the commentators, but to anyone with extensive anti-computer chess experience it makes perfect sense. The rook protects the f2 pawn, a potential weak spot, but why would you protect something that isn't being attacked?

The reason goes into how computers think. Its brute force calculation can only go so deep, even with four super-fast processors. Black's only possible source of counterplay in this position is to push its f-pawn and open up an attack against the area around the white king, f2 in particular.

If X3D Fritz's search, usually running 12-20 half-moves deep, ever reaches a position in which it sees success in such an attack it will put such a plan in motion. On the other hand, if it cannot reach a favorable position in its searches it will never play the initial moves required. With the rook on b2 protecting f2 already, the potential weakness of that critical square is somewhat hidden from the computer's search.

X3D Fritz can't just play it anyway like a human would, knowing that everything else is useless. A machine has to receive a positive evaluation from its search to play a move and always plays the move that gives it the best evaluation. Since X3D Fritz sees no danger here for itself it is content to play moves that do nothing, but don't cause any negative effect either. It twiddles its virtual reality thumbs. Any human would say, "I have to do SOMETHING."

The computer, not seeing any immediate tactical chances, fails to develop any kind of strategy. The same can be said of the RON AI. Or the AI for any strategy game. For computers, it's all tactics.
posted by Tim at 10:42 AM

Based on community feedback about the current BHG ratings page, I've produced a modified version of the Top 100 filtered by activity (played in the last 30 days) and total rated games (10 or greater).

O4BRank	Rank	Player                   Rating	W	L	#	Date

1	4	PCA_Frogman              2294	33	0	33	11/18

2	14	PCA_newty                2150	46	16	62	11/18

3	15	Udon_Bomber              2148	31	5	36	11/10

4	16	TWC_ShaDowZ              2145	33	8	41	11/17

5	19	TuF_Astator              2129	47	12	59	11/17

6	22	Ma_ARes_rS               2122	24	2	26	11/14

7	28	DaRq_Vorfidus            2111	18	7	25	11/18

8	34	_RedruM_                 2096	21	4	25	11/13

9	36	G_DoG_                   2087	23	5	28	11/15

10	38	camel                    2086	9	4	13	11/16

11	51	Prime_Time               2067	10	1	11	11/17

12	55	PCA_yuu_rerise           2062	16	1	17	11/16

13	56	UD_Renegade              2056	34	16	50	10/18

14	59	PCA_Mell                 2052	19	3	22	11/17

15	61	I_LoVe_YoU               2051	29	6	35	10/19

16	62	Silvery_Dragon[ms]       2048	9	4	13	11/13

17	63	TWC_LoKatZiS             2048	15	8	23	11/17

18	64	AU_MeMeNTo               2048	15	5	20	11/17

19	68	I_HoSt_1oN1              2040	77	20	97	10/26

20	69	SolituS                  2037	13	1	14	11/17

21	70	Gigi                     2032	10	1	11	11/18

22	74	PCA_MATUURA_AYA          2026	34	10	44	11/15

23	79	Hiromu                   2023	81	22	103	11/18

24	80	UWF--FoLeY--UWF          2021	13	2	15	11/18

25	81	zunko                    2021	20	5	25	11/17

26	85	TWC_Spad_                2016	8	6	14	10/19

27	89	Nanjin                   2010	61	24	85	11/16

28	90	Be_Good                  2009	11	4	15	10/29

29	91	Renegade                 2008	88	33	121	10/27

30	96	True_Ogre                2005	12	4	16	10/27

31	97	PlayRated                2005	51	18	69	11/13

32	98	TuF_Richter_             2004	65	12	77	11/15

posted by Tim at 10:19 AM

This time it's El_Capitan. MFO: thoughts on the best and worst civs

well, the top 6 don't matter so much, cause the game is so non-ensemble-like balanced with the other 6 civs. the worst 6 matter the most, because i think if someone were given the choice of having the best civ and then the worst civ, or two civs that aren't either, most people would pick the latter. maybe it's just me, but i feel i get screwed everytime i get em. btw, these are just 1v1 game civs

posted by Tim at 2:02 PM

This game, which you can download here, was the finals match for the recent BLuT Gangbang Tourney last Saturday. By virtue of the high level of play alone, it would serve as our Spotlight Game. However, there are several interesting lessons from this game that we can observe:

• The winner was Japanese vs. Koreans. So even an uber-civ can lose Any Given Sunday (or Saturday, as in this case).


• El_Capitan attempts an Expansion Rush! Vs. Koreans! And fails! But wins the game! Whew. Korean repair and a quick tower prevented Capitan from taking the town. However, he did manage to kill off a mechant, a farm, a caravan, and, more importantly, the university. Just goes to show that rushing can work and is a Viable Strat, even among good players.


• You can still boom after rushing. Capitan gets little to show for his SCI1, MIL1 start, but still manages to outboom Richter. The key to this, IMO, was killing the university. Richter couldn't get COM2 for quite awhile and this made greater number of villagers worthless. After this point, the game was pretty much in Capitan's favor as Richter never could catch up economically.


• Meanwhile, Capitan researched SCI3 before getting COM2. This seems rather unusual, and he had to wait for a long time to collect the 112 knowledge to afford COM2, but it worked out great for him in the end. Personally, I'd prefer an early COM2 because it allows trade. Later COM research could be sacrificed for advancing SCI research, but what do I know?


• Capitan forces the issue by some excellent border flanking that results in a Decapitation Strike on Seoul. Capitan sacks Richter's capital. Richter rushes back to recapture, but then Capitan's main force sacks a city on the middle frontline. Game over.

This game had it all. Good rushing, good defending, good raiding, good booming, good strategy at the end. There was some really great micro on the part of both players as they skirmished in the beginning. WATCH THIS GAME.
posted by Tim at 11:43 AM

Are Mayans still too powerful? There's a thread at the Rise of Nations Heaven forum which says they are. If you rely on raiding, early attacks, or wonder wins, then you probably think they are. If you primarily win with better micromanagement, then you might think they are, particularly if you find your troops getting killed by tower and city fire. If you're like me where you prefer the macro game, then it's a toss up. Maya can boom effectively, but they aren't the best at it. They're my next civ to master, since I like to incorporate a few wonders into my gameplan, even in 1on1 games. So we'll be able to add some more wisdom to this discussion later on.

UPDATE: In the comments section, I said this in response to Tann's comments:

I think the biggest deal still remains the difficulty in reducing the Mayan buildings. Both Korea and Mayan cities are hard to reduce and THAT is what makes them really tough IMO. If you can't reduce them, you can't capture, and you can't advance.

HalfLotus says basically the same thing as I do:

The Mayan building HP bonus is huge in the late game. A maya major city has like 15k hp. Because it takes so long to destroy Mayan towers, forts, cities, barracks, stable, etc....they have lots more time to arrange defenses in the form of units/upgrades/techs. Taking a mayan city (the only way to make significant gains on them) is a chore. You can get more siege, but siege is very expensive and ramps quickly. I say nerf the building hp bonus a little.

This is also why Korea is a monster in the late game. The free repair means they hold onto cities MUCH longer than other nations. It's takes a much greater miltary or economic advantage to take a city from Korea and Maya in late game. nerf, nerf, nerf!

posted by Tim at 8:58 AM

I had sent an email to Graham Somers at BHG -- he's the Big Huge Community guy -- on the topic of Ratings Pages. He was nice enough to send this reply:

I'd say most or all of us here are in agreement with the community and I've definitely been reading all of the posts about the ratings page. We're looking into some options, including ratings decay. Would you prefer decay (nothing too drastic) or a solution like the one that you have on your site?

Cool. It's great to know they're listening and considering their options. So, we'll ponder a bit before we respond.

Props to BHG! Say what you want about the multiplayer code, but BHG has been just about the most fan-friendly developer I've ever been involved with. Even if they don't do anything to change the ratings, just getting a response is better than a lot of developers out there. Hats off to GS and the rest of the BHG crew. Keep up the good work!

UPDATE: Here's what I sent back to Graham

Graham: Thanks for your response. It's refreshing to see a developer play an active role in the community. It's rare to see. I'm not entirely sure what the "perfect" system would be, but here are my thoughts....

I think the bottom line for players is that they want to see who's currently playing the best. The current page doesn't satisfy that because many of the players who dominate the top of the page haven't played in almost 3 months. Also it appears that the rating system previously used was a bit different from the current one.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that my rating is dependent on the rating of my opposition. If I can only find players who are 1900 or so, then I will never achieve a lofty rating. So it's useful for me to see how I compare against the current crop of players. In that case, I want to see a rating list that shows the top active players.

Defining active then is one issue. You'd need to set the minimum number of games and define the period in question. It seems reasonable that you should require a small number of games (3-5 perhaps) per month. You don't want the number too large, because then it rewards constant play, not skill. We just want people out there mixing it up. Players who don't meet that minimum don't have their rating displayed on the active list. In order to get them to care, you make the active list the default view when checking the ratings page.

It's logical to assume that if a player is not playing the minimum number of games per month then they are not maintaining their current rating level. So some sort of ratings decay might be in order. From discussing this with folks, there does seem to be consensus. The important thing is to keep it reasonable to ensure casual gamers aren't adversely affected. Also, you might want to establish a "floor" below which a player could never go below merely by decay. To satisfy those would don't like decay, it might be a good idea to also display (but not sort by -- make that a separate option) the highest established rating a player has attained. Another alternative is a "Hall of Fame" page.

It's also good to only display established ratings (or a minimum number of games), or at least to identify those ratings which are not established, perhaps with an asterisk. A 10 or 20-game minimum before making the board might be a good idea. Players with less than the minimum could still "see" where they stand, but their names wouldn't be displayed.

One more thing: it would be really nice if we could see better individual stats. Like what nations does a particular player play most often. Or what nations are the most preferred. It would also be nice to see these stats specifically for the rated room. This is where the rubber meets the road. Is everyone playing Mayan or is that just a rumor?

On a technical note: If the system used to calculate ratings has changed at all, then you should probably 1) do a one-time reset of "old ratings" or 2) recalculate those old ratings using the new methodology. It doesn't seem fair to compare old rating with new ratings.

To summarize:

• Only show active players -- you decide what determines active (I did played 1 game in last month)


• Establish a minimum threshold for display -- you can decide that, too (I did 10 games)


• Use decay to estimate current skill levels of payers who've stopped playing -- 100 points for every month not active, again your choice


• Add the "highest attained rating" to the display for each player


• Add more detailed player statistics where possible

Of course, O4B is just one voice among many, so share your thoughts people.
posted by Tim at 5:34 AM

niDe asked to play. I told him Wifey was home and no sound so I "can't play serious." Instead, I suggested a 2v2 game where we give a +10 skill handicap. That takes about 5 min with us winning. So much for skill level -- maybe I shouldn't rush. Anyway, he says we oughta play 1on1, so I figure, what the heck... Koreans (him) vs. Chinese (me) on small Old World. Game is available at MFO.

We both start out about the same, excpet he does SCI2, CIV2, while I do SCI2, COM2. My raiding goes nowhere. His kills off my 2 merchants. He attacks me early, but I defend and hold him off, gaining ground on him economically. We trade one of my cities for a bit in Enlightenment and Industrial Age, but I finally recapture it and that pretty much ends the fight, although we battle into the Modern Age. He did more killing and managed his army better, but I had a larger econ and that ends up winning in the end. (It's easier to focus on the macro stuff with no sound.)

Interesting thing one of the observers pointed out is that I only had 2 universities (he had 4 I think). I guess it was because I didn't need that much knowledge. We were doing so much fighting from Classical on that there weren't enough "other" resources to need lots of knowledge.
posted by Tim at 10:46 PM

Think you know how airplanes really fly? Think again. And read this. (Discover)
posted by Tim at 2:26 PM

From The Onion, what happens when ... Mom Finds Out About Blog? Regular readers know we're most concerned about Wifey. :-)
posted by Tim at 2:04 PM

El_Capitan defeated TuF_Richter_ in the final. You can view the brackets from yesterday's tourney here. TuF_Richter_ was nice enough to post and comment on his games. The recorded game from the finals is available here (RON Universe).

old world, me with random Koreans against el_capitans random Japanese.
he tries a rush, I saw it coming but I wasted to much resources defending it (no one rushes me normally^^).
= I was overconfident and didn't realize that I build 2 universities to late (wasted wood and gold for rush defense).
after that this el_capitan went on rocking hardcore.
ends in modern age.
el_cap has amazing booming skills

The semi-final game featuring Richter is here.

great lakes, blut1210mkII with random russia vs me with random nubians.
well unfair civs, game was decided in enlightment and over in industrial.

UPDATE: The other semi-final game between EL_Capitan and PCA _newty is in the PCA clan game library. I think this is what he says:

Being to pull France, it tries to launch swift attack, but the partner gives up in Maya.
Being to be the arena, it does the bow cavalryman storm, but it is returned.
You doing the sea among those roughly, internal affair doing to be defeated, the quaintness.
It was in the last partner you putting on airs, it increases, (' the ･ ω ･ `) the ｼ ｮ ﾎ ﾞ ｰ ｿ

As for the Australian hinterland whether the sea of the partner it is good to devastate.
Such a wide sea control of the sea it is the case that it does not become matter of concern which is taken, but.

posted by Tim at 1:59 PM